01:31 -!- Prax01D(n=Prax01D@149.99.96.13) has joined #maxima
01:47 -!- istefano(n=istefano@65.39.87.25) has joined #maxima
03:43 -!- trebor_h_(n=trebor@dslb-084-058-223-138.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #maxima
05:22 -!- lisppaste4(n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #maxima
06:06 -!- emma(n=emma@user-12lcol5.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #maxima
06:37 -!- stw__(n=stw@e176169078.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #maxima
07:35 -!- Prax01D(n=Prax01D@tor58-4-74-168.dynamic.rogerstelecom.net) has joined #maxima
09:18 -!- szymon(n=szymon@bzm16.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #maxima
10:28 -!- ASau(n=user@79.111.10.47) has joined #maxima
12:41 -!- grandrew(n=grandrew@91.78.33.75) has joined #maxima
12:42 <grandrew> hi all! how can i make maxima not pretty-print output - i mean, return x^2 and a/b instead of 'like paper-written'? So I could copy-paste it into real program?
12:47 -!- cunzhang(n=chatzill@218.7.43.195) has joined #maxima
12:48 <lindi-> grandrew: "display2d : false;"
12:49 <lindi-> grandrew: or "tex(a/b);" for TeX output you can include in your LaTeX document
13:03 <grandrew> thanks!
13:08 -!- ASau(n=user@79.111.18.27) has joined #maxima
13:08 <grandrew> and why does maxima change y1 to Y1 in results output while x1 remains unchanged?
13:12 <lindi-> grandrew: interesting, how can i reproduce that?
13:14 <grandrew> solve([y2s = m*x2s + b, l^2=(x2s-x1)^2 + (y2s-y1)^2], [x2s, y2s]);
13:14 <grandrew> makes my y1 change case to Y1:
13:14 <grandrew> (%o25) [[x2s = -(SQRT(-Y1^2+(2*m*x1+2*b)*Y1-m^2*x1^2...
13:15 <grandrew> maybe that's because i'm using some extremely old maxima version
13:15 <lindi-> grandrew: doesn't happen here: http://rafb.net/p/l7fNva39.html
13:17 <grandrew> okay. I'll assume it's my old maxima bug. I was just wondering if it indicates any computation errors
13:17 <cunzhang> 5.14.0 doesn't too
13:17 <lindi-> 5.10.0 here
13:18 <lindi-> grandrew: my guess is that you have defined some of those variables to be Y1
13:18 <grandrew> 5.9.1 :-)
13:18 <lindi-> grandrew: i can reproduce that
13:18 <lindi-> just tested with 5.9.1 and I see "Y1".
13:19 <grandrew> hm okay. hope this just doesn't affect results if i take them case-insensitive
13:20 <grandrew> lindi-, you're having all maxima versions installed? are you maxima guru? :-)
13:21 <lindi-> grandrew: no i just have debian oldstable, stable and unstable in chroots
13:22 <grandrew> hah cool
13:27 <lindi-> so i can just say "sid maxima" to run the unstable version (where sid is wrapper for schroot -c sid -p -q -- "$@")
13:38 -!- Prax01D10D(n=Prax01D@tor58-7-82-184.dynamic.rogerstelecom.net) has joined #maxima
14:33 <emma> I have seen projects/channels on Freenode some times offer their members/users a cloak that they can use on Freenode.  Like for example: Tooby-Wan (n=ToO@wikinews/Tooby) is a cloak someone has from the wikimedia people.  I am a user of Maxima and a hopeful future contributor, so could Maxima have a cloak and could I get one? 
14:37 <lindi-> emma: i am not sure if any maxima developers visit this channel at all
14:37 <emma> Harald G does.
14:42 <lindi-> good to know
15:19 -!- szymon(n=szymon@bzv33.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #maxima
17:17 -!- Sharpie(n=sharpie@bzq-79-182-159-172.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #maxima
17:18 <Sharpie> how can i get a numerical result? (like, the full number instead of 1.354619*10^-8)
17:19 <lindi-> Sharpie: "1/2,numer;"
17:21 <Sharpie> nope, still gives me 1.3546190035842542*10^-8
17:21 <lindi-> Sharpie: what is the input?
17:21 <Sharpie> i want a number (like,0.000000001)
17:21 <Sharpie> let's say the input is 1.3546190035842542*10^-8
17:24 <lindi-> (%i16) printf(false, "~f", 1.3546190035842542*10^-8);
17:24 <lindi-> (%o16)                    0.000000013546190035842542
17:28 <Sharpie> hm, i'm using wxmaxima, do you know how to do that here?
17:28 <lindi-> Sharpie: you can just type 'printf(false, "~f", 1.3546190035842542*10^-8);' there surely?
17:29 <Sharpie> brings up an error
17:29 <lindi-> Sharpie: what error?
17:29 <Sharpie> Could not find `stringproc' using paths in file_search_maxima.
17:30 <lindi-> interesting
17:30 <lindi-> i think you need newer maxima
17:30 <lindi-> 5.13.0 works, 5.10.0 doesn't seem to
17:32 <Sharpie> i have 5.12.0
17:35 <ASau> Sharpie: What is the point of using obsolete release?
17:35 <Sharpie> that's the version in the repo =[
17:35 <lindi-> debian stable has 5.10.0
17:35 <Sharpie> ubuntu has 5.12
17:35 <ASau> Use other package managers then.
17:35 <ASau> Which don't lag behind progress that much.
17:36 <ASau> Or nag your distributors.
17:36 <lindi-> Sharpie: just setup chroot for debian unstable for example
17:36 <lindi-> Sharpie: http://iki.fi/lindi/schroot.txt has examples
17:41 <Sharpie> i'll just compile maxima from source then
17:41 <lindi-> Sharpie: that's not so good, you can't report bugs to distributions then :)
17:41 <ASau> Sharpie: install pkgsrc (pkgsrc.org) and get in touch with progress.
17:42 <ASau> We do most of things for you.
17:43 <ASau> lindi-: you can.
17:43 <ASau> First bug is "* distributes long time obsolete Maxima, please fix it."
17:44 <lindi-> ASau: i meant that if you download maxima manually and build it yourself then you can't really report a bug against the package which you did not use at all
17:44 <ASau> lindi-: you can.
17:44 <ASau> Bug report formula is:
17:45 <ASau> "<Substitute your distribution name> distributes long time obsolete Maxima."
17:45 <lindi-> ASau: i want it to distribute 5.10.0
17:45 <ASau> This is a bug.
17:45 <lindi-> i consider it a feature :)
17:45 <ASau> That means that your distribution is obsolete as well.
17:46 <lindi-> bits don't get old :)
17:46 <Sharpie> ASau what are you using?
17:46 <ASau> There're a number of bugs fixed since 5.10.
17:46 <ASau> Sharpie: I use NetBSD.
17:46 <Sharpie> hardcore.
17:46 <lindi-> ASau: yep, and that's why i use 5.13.0 too
17:47 <Sharpie> 5.14 is compiling as we speak =o
17:47 <ASau> I use 5.14.0, which is the current official package.
17:47 <Sharpie> there all done
17:47 <Sharpie> now i'll compile the new wxmaxima =o
17:48 <Sharpie> the whole process will probably take less time than removing ubuntu and installing BSD
17:48 <ASau> You can use pkgsrc on Ubuntu.
17:48 <Sharpie> would rather not to.
17:48 <ASau> It's Debian inside, IIRC, and someone run pkgsrc bulk builds for Debian.
17:49 <ASau> Sharpie: I prefer pkgsrc to gnu/linux package management.
17:49 <Sharpie> wow, wxmaima is taking more time to compile than maxima
17:49 <ASau> It is more modern and average time to fix bug is around 10 days.
17:49 <Sharpie> and it's about 1/20 its size
17:50 <Sharpie> there, now i have wxmaxima 0.7.4 and maxima 5.14
17:51 <Sharpie> now how can i simplify 1.3546190035842542*10^-8? :/
17:51 <ASau> I've got fed up with various linux-based distributions in past.
17:51 <lindi-> we can see that :)
17:51 <ASau> If you want to get the "0.000000013546190035842542" result,
17:51 <ASau> use what was proposed above.
17:51 <Sharpie> i kinda lost it
17:52 <ASau> printf(false, "~f", 1.3546190035842542*10^-8);
17:52 <Sharpie> and it's kinda harder to find things in irssi
17:52 <Sharpie> thx.
17:52 <lindi-> < lindi-> (%i16) printf(false, "~f", 1.3546190035842542*10^-8);
17:52 -!- sharpie_(n=sharpie@bzq-79-182-159-172.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #maxima
17:52 <sharpie_> accidently pressed ctrl-z
17:52 <sharpie_> anyway, it prints um
17:53 <sharpie_> 1.3546190035842542e-8
17:53 <lindi-> Sharpie: which lisp interpreter?
17:53 <Sharpie> lindi um
17:53 <Sharpie> not sure rly
17:54 <Sharpie> just whatever was in the repo
17:54 <ASau> It prints in the startup banned.
17:54 <lindi-> Sharpie: you didn't use the same packaging scripts that debian unstable uses?
17:54 <ASau> ...banner.
17:54 <Sharpie> Using Lisp CMU Common Lisp CVS release-19a 19a-release-20040728 + minimal debian patches
17:55 <lindi-> Sharpie: debian unstable uses GCL
17:55 <Sharpie> too bad i don't have it :/
17:55 <lindi-> Sharpie: apt-get build-dep maxima?
17:55 <lindi-> Sharpie: it'd be a lot easier to just use debian unstable chroot
17:55 <Sharpie> but i already installed and compiled maxima
17:56 <lindi-> Sharpie: but with the wrong lisp interpreter maybe? ;)
17:56 <Sharpie> there's only 1 in the repo
17:56 <ASau> Well, CMUCL is among the fastests.
17:56 <emma> (when this technical discussion winds down, I would like to ask some philosophical questions about Maxima, just give me a signal for when that would not be rude :) )
17:56 <lindi-> emma: heh
17:56 <ASau> emma: just ask.
17:57 <Sharpie> well, nobody knows how to simplify it then?
17:57 <Sharpie> other than the printf command?
17:57 <ASau> We can answer it later.
17:57 <emma> No no i don't want to interrupt an important conversation. 
17:57 <ASau> Sharpie: what is simpler than the number??
17:57 <Sharpie> well, i want the full number
17:57 <Sharpie> instead of 1.3546190035842542e-8
17:57 <ASau> What does "full number" mean??
17:58 <Sharpie> 0.000000047831947289whatever
17:58 <lindi-> with leading zeroes
17:58 <emma> Okay then:  I was wondering what is the advantage of Maxima being written in Lisp?  Could Maxima be written in Scheme? And could Maxima ever be re-written in another language? What would be some advantages of re-writing it in another language?
17:58 <ASau> Sharpie: That's just another denotation, the number is the same.
17:58 <Sharpie> ASau: i'm well aware of that, nevertheless i need the full number
17:59 <ASau> emma: the advantage is the existense of Maxima.
17:59 <lindi-> emma: i haven't yet managed to debug maxima under slime, i don't know the code base well
17:59 <ASau> emma: Scheme didn't exist, when MACSYMA started.
17:59 <emma> Please don't let these little questions out of curiosity interrupt the serious technical discussion. :)
18:00 <ASau> BTW, lindi-, is there a way to trace backend lisp evaluation?
18:00 <ASau> I'm trying to find it in the documentation for a month!
18:01 <ASau> (I don't have much time to spend on it.)
18:01 <lindi-> ASau: i have only tried to debug using slime
18:02 <emma> I know Scheme did not exist back then. But Scheme exists now. Could Maxima be written in Scheme? 
18:02 <emma> Could Maxima be re-written in Java or Python (just two pick two at random)? 
18:02 <ASau> emma: no point in doing that.
18:02 <ASau> lindi-: well, any pointer?
18:02 <ASau> lindi-: any success?
18:03 <emma> Might there be a benefit in the sense that the intersection of people who are very competent in math and competent in coding is already small, but even smaller when you add the third circle to the venn diagram of being very competent in Lisp?
18:03 -!- szymon(n=szymon@cam203.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #maxima
18:03 <lindi-> ASau: http://iki.fi/lindi/clisp/README is about my "how to get debugging symbols" experiments
18:03 <emma> This is not a statement, since I surely do not know, but if Maxima were re-written in Python might there be lots more developers working on it?
18:03 <lindi-> ASau: and http://iki.fi/lindi/maxima-debug.txt
18:03 <lindi-> ASau: it seems that somehow the core that is dumped to disk just does not have the debugging information
18:04 <lindi-> emma: well, if i could debug it with slime it'd be easy for me to contribute
18:04 <ASau> emma: no point in rewriting it in Python, Lisp is better.
18:05 <lindi-> i'm sure some developers must be using slime to debug it
18:05 <Sharpie> can't find anything in the documentation either =\
18:08 <ASau> Sharpie: if you want comparison of Lisp implementations,
18:08 <ASau> here's a sketch:
18:08 <Sharpie> ASau: ...talking about my exponential problem 
18:08 <ASau> there exist 4 major opensource players:
18:09 <Sharpie> ASau: i don't care about lisp
18:09 <ASau> CLISP, GCL, CMUCL, SBCL.
18:09 <ASau> SBCL is the best, GCL is the worst.
18:09 <Sharpie> ASau: stop
18:09 <ASau> CLISP is the most portable.
18:09 <Sharpie> 1.3546190035842542e-8
18:09 <Sharpie> make this a number.
18:09 <ASau> It is a number already.
18:10 <Sharpie> make this a number without exponents
18:10 <lindi-> and GCL does not call itself "open source" :)
18:10 <lindi-> (couldn't resist)
18:10 <ASau> GCL is opensource, but it is the worst opensource Lisp.
18:11 <ASau> I didn't look at ABCL, but I don't think it deserves comparison.
18:11 <ASau> For my needs I want native implementation.
18:11 <ASau> Java isn't portable enough.
18:12 <ASau> Sharpie: what is wrong with printf?
18:12 <Sharpie> it doesn't work
18:12 <ASau> I see, that it does.
18:13 <Sharpie> not over here
18:13 <ASau> Right over here.
18:13 <lindi-> it is probably passed to the lisp interpreter
18:13 <ASau> Sharpie: So, you should explain exactly, what you want.
18:13 <lindi-> i think he wants zeroes
18:13 <ASau> ???
18:13 <lindi-> and no "e"
18:13 <Sharpie> indeed.
18:13 <emma> Is Maxima written in the kind of Lisp that most people who know Lisp are comfortable with?
18:14 <ASau> emma: right.
18:14 <lindi-> emma: common lisp is pretty standard yes
18:14 <Sharpie> i want 1000 instead of 1*10^3
18:14 <emma> Why can't lindi- work out the Lisp when he seems to know Lisp?
18:14 <emma> Is there any way that Maxima could be re-written in Scheme?
18:14 <Sharpie> or in this case, 0.something instead of 1.3546190035842542e-8
18:14 <lindi-> emma: since i can't figure out the build system to include debugging symbols
18:14 <ASau> emma: the problem isn't in Lisp here.
18:15 <ASau> emma: rewriting in other language requires far more understanding of both languages.
18:15 <ASau> emma: it requires more man power and more effort as well.
18:16 <lindi-> ASau: if you ever figure out how to debug maxima using slime please let me know :)
18:16 <ASau> lindi-: alright.
18:16 <emma> ASau - it would sure be a huge undertaking, but maybe if it had a pay off it could be worth it.
18:16 <ASau> emma: it doesn't worth it.
18:17 <ASau> 1. Lisp is better than Python.
18:17 <emma> I was just thinking, imagine Maxima written in a language that was a little less byzantine to most people, then there would be more people who could help?
18:17 <ASau> Lisp is easier to use than Python.
18:17 <lindi-> emma: lisp is not so difficult to learn really
18:17 <lindi-> emma: the tools could just be nicer
18:18 <ASau> Python has major problems with difference between data and language.
18:18 <emma> None of what I'm saying is said from any experience or knowledge, I hope I don't come across that way.  
18:18 <ASau> It does matter for CAS.
18:19 <emma> I will tell you all (and this Harald G bot) a little secret. Until about 5 months ago, I didn't know anything about any of these things. But then I switched to Linux, stumbled into IRC, learned about Maxima, thought Maxima was the most wonderful thing ever (a gift to humanity), learned that Maxima is written in Lisp, and now I am trying to learn my first programming language :)
18:20 <lindi-> maxima is definitely not perfect :)
18:20 <emma> It will be eventually. 
18:20 <Sharpie> isn't lisp a bit obsolete?
18:20 <emma> I went to learn Lisp but they recommended I start learning Scheme because there are good educational resources. 
18:21 <lindi-> emma: if you learn scheme it's not difficult to learn (common) lisp after that
18:21 <emma> So as my first programming language I'm trying to teach myself Scheme.  That's why I wondered if Maxima could be re-written in Scheme :)
18:21 <Sharpie> why not learn any of the mainstream languages? (c/c++/python/java)
18:21 <ASau> Sharpie: Lisp isn't.
18:21 <Sharpie> and emma, it would take years of experience to be able to rewrite maxima
18:21 <ASau> Sharpie: Python is.
18:21 <emma> Sharpie - Read the sequence of events that led to me learning a programming language in the first place. 
18:21 <lindi-> emma: gnucash is written in C and scheme, in case you want something practical to study :)
18:22 <emma> Why would I learn a programming language that Maxima is not written in?
18:22 <Sharpie> lol
18:22 <Sharpie> yup, i love the bible
18:22 <lindi-> emma: to learn :)
18:22 <emma> I'm not joking. 
18:22 <Sharpie> why would i wear clothes people there didn't
18:22 <emma> :)
18:22 <lindi-> emma: scheme is so much more compact
18:22 <lindi-> emma: you better start with it
18:22 <Sharpie> and actually, i like comic books
18:22 <Sharpie> why would i not be 2D
18:22 <emma> I did start with Scheme I feel like it's a Lisp so it's not wasted time.
18:23 <emma> Hopefully when I know Scheme it won't be so hard to learn CL so I can understand Maxima.
18:23 <Sharpie> you can't become an experienced programmer overnight
18:23 <emma> But I have some ideas for how I would like to help Maxima in the meantime until I know Lisp.
18:23 <Sharpie> actually you know what, it's a great idea
18:24 <Sharpie> i'll go learn C and rewrite linux
18:24 <lindi-> rewrite it in what? ;)
18:24 <emma> I am not aiming to re-write anything. I think you might be mistaking me. :)
18:24 <emma> I wondered about the possibility of all of YOU re-writing it into something easier to learn for me :)
18:25 <emma> But if that's not helpful over all then, I'll just learn Lisp eventually. It will probably take a while though.
18:26 <ASau> emma: no such possibility.
18:26 <Sharpie> well actually that's a great idea
18:26 <ASau> emma: think about rewriting UNIX in BASIC.
18:26 <Sharpie> it's really hard for me to build my own motherboard
18:26 <Sharpie> maybe i'll call ASUS and ask them to make their motherboards out of lego?
18:28 <emma> Oh come on guys I was being a little bit light hearted.  The question about the feasibility and possible upsides of re-writing Maxima in a more widely known language were sincere, but not just for me. :)
18:29 <ASau> Since even SAGE refers to Maxima, there's no indication of use of converting to anything else.
18:30 <Sharpie> moreover, it's extremely complicated, rewriting a project that's been under construction for over 20 years isn't such a simple thing to do
18:30 <emma> The only advantage I can imagine is that if it were written in a more widely used language there would probably be a lot more people putting energy into it. Because Maxima is one of the coolest things ever. 
18:30 <lindi-> hmm, just looked at pkgsrc. it seems to requre proprietary sun jvm for compiling eclipse although it has been possible to compile it with gcj for a few years and now we also have icedtea
18:31 <ASau> emma: Lisp _is_ widely used.
18:31 <Sharpie> emma: you might as well call rich stallman and ask him to rewrite gnu/linux in C#
18:31 <emma> My guess is that Lisp is a barrier of entry for a lot of people who would be enthusiastic Maxima developers?
18:31 <lindi-> not lisp itself, it's the tools
18:32 <ASau> lindi-: I don't use java myself, but I'll tell others.
18:32 <ASau> emma: there're pretty many things to do without Lisp knowledge.
18:32 <ASau> emma: and Lisp is way easier than Python.
18:32 <grandrew> haha
18:33 <emma> I have an idea for something that I am going to try to do independently to help the Maxima project. 
18:33 <Sharpie> donate money
18:33 <grandrew> ASau, dont you think do really? :-P
18:33 <ASau> grandrew: I do think that way.
18:33 <emma> Who should I send money too? Harald?
18:34 <ASau> I used Python, I used some old Lisp, I used Common Lisp.
18:34 <ASau> I used Scheme too.
18:34 <grandrew> Lisp is the only language that I can write programs in but can not understand some of the programs written by pro's
18:35 <grandrew> that's why I fear Lisp
18:35 <lindi-> i have just very basic lisp knowledge, i wish the tools were bit easier to use
18:35 <ASau> grandrew: same with C and Python.
18:35 <grandrew> ASau, you've got the reverse-polish mind :-P
18:36 <lindi-> python at least seems to be constantly changing which is bit worrying
18:36 <ASau> Forth is the language I love. :p
18:36 <Sharpie> i program with notepad
18:36 <Sharpie> and let monkeys execute w/e i write
18:37 <emma> 
ACTION executes whatever you write

18:37 <grandrew> the truth is, Python is much much much easier to program with, but is just completely unsuitable for the tasks maxima solves
18:38 <lindi-> and speaking of the tools, i really like the ocaml debugger where you can go backwards in time
18:39 <grandrew> haha the fourth link at google for 'ocaml' is http://www.podval.org/~sds/ocaml-sucks.html lol
18:40 <ASau> grandrew: yeah, and that page refers to CMUCL.
18:40 <emma> Is there seriously a place to make donations to the Maxima project?
18:40 <emma> Who oversees this project? Is there a project manager?
18:41 <emma> Would you like to know how I hope to help the Maxima project in the mean time while I have no coding skills?
18:43 <grandrew> you can find almost everything you need at http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima
18:47 <ASau> grandrew: Python is a step back to good old FORTRAN days,
18:47 <ASau> grandrew: I have visual space for more than 100 columns,
18:48 <ASau> but have to use only first dozens of them just because
18:48 <ASau> "indentation matters" and you can't write several elementary
18:48 <ASau> operations in a line.
18:49 <grandrew> ASau, Python is a step forward to a more complete, formal and understandable language
18:49 <ASau> In any other respects, it doesn't differ from any interpreted language.
18:50 <ASau> We have formal languages since Algol days.
18:50 <grandrew> and you can separate operatord by; in python. Once I thought 'indentation mattaers' is a bad joke but now i understand the importance of forcing everyone use the single formal writing technique - even in text formatting
18:50 <ASau> Except PERL and others of that kind.
18:52 <ASau> This technique leads to breaking lines, containing the
18:52 <ASau> single conceptual operation, into several ones identically indented.
18:52 <grandrew> ALGOL is not coparable to python in the terms of symbols per action as many other languages
18:52 <ASau> That's clearly bad, as shown in so-called "Forth horizontal style".
18:53 <ASau> OTOH, Python isn't comparable to anything of APL family, so what?
18:53 <grandrew> ASau, again, use:  python -c "a=1;print(a)"
18:53 <ASau> APL is formal too.
18:53 <ASau> grandrew: that's alright, I took the hint.
18:54 <ASau> Yet the problem remains.
18:54 <ASau> This indentation-oriented style leads to breaking
18:54 <ASau> conceptual operations into elementary dust.
18:54 <grandrew> that is not a problem its a feature. You'll understand why if you start coding python great apps
18:56 <ASau> E.g. "t=a; a=b; b=t" is required to be broken into separate lines,
18:56 <ASau> and be mixed into the rest.
18:56 <ASau> grandrew: I used that in Forth, and have understood, that's bad.
18:56 <grandrew> ASau, and speaking of Lisp vs. python the latter is at almost 10x faster in execution. arguable-and-depends though but is true for general coding
18:57 <ASau> I never noticed speed advantage.
18:57 <grandrew> Forth != Python. I tried forth too and know it is bad not because of indentation
18:58 <ASau> Probably, SBCL and LispWorks are good in optimization.
18:59 <ASau> I used Forth, Lisp, C, Python, and see, that Python indentation rules are bad.
18:59 <ASau> Like any other indentation rules.
18:59 <ASau> In any language since FORTRAN.
19:00 <grandrew> the only truth I know for Lisp is that I wrote algebraic differentiation, taylor series and some other stuff for my Palm m500 mini-lisp - all took about 800 LOC AFAIR. recetly found the same for python in 10000 LOC. that's true
19:01 <grandrew> Lisp is far better for algebra and AI - what it was designed for
19:02 <ASau> I don't know what Python is good for, except trivial stuff, like web services.
19:04 <grandrew> haha web services is trivial but important ;-) so are Inkscape and Scipy
19:05 <ASau> I didn't look at Lisp web frameworks, yet they exist.
19:05 <ASau> And I did XML processing in Lisp.
19:06 <ASau> As for numeric stuff, I prefer FORTRAN.
19:06 <grandrew> you can not use Lisp for those due to performance degrade. You COULD use lisp if it showed another 10x in development time decrease but it does not
19:07 <ASau> I never have seen performance degrade in Python to Lisp switch.
19:07 <ASau> Performance increased rather well for me.
19:09 <grandrew> the reason I write almost everything in python now is that it is really faster in terms of development time. Faster than everything now available to build anything 'trivial' - a times faster
19:10 <ASau> Another PERL.
19:10 <grandrew> yep, another 5x perl
19:11 <ASau> That's why you argue in favour of strict indentation rules,
19:11 <ASau> it doesn't matter if code readable or not while it is properly indented.
19:12 <grandrew> indentation rules _increase_ readability. Or you can argue that?
19:12 <ASau> Yes.
19:13 <grandrew> impossible.
19:13 <ASau> They don't, unless you don't have beautifier.
19:14 <ASau> Large part of GNU code is unreadable, though properly indented.
19:15 <grandrew> GNU code is C
19:15 <ASau> So?
19:16 <ASau> I've seen Python code as well (had to modify it).
19:19 <grandrew> if you code python, you unserstand that indentation rules, no need for { } begin/end - work together and lead to more understandable code. I dunno what code did you meet with that you could hardly understand
19:20 <ASau> I didn't say, that I hardly understand it, but it was easier to understand,
19:20 <grandrew> btw, if anybody needed the "{} -> indentation" preprocessor for python - it would have been written already. Nobody needs it
19:20 <ASau> if it was properly formatted, not just formally.
19:21 <grandrew> properly formatted or code properly designed? 
19:21 <ASau> Properly formatted.
19:21 <ASau> Cf. literate works.
19:21 <ASau> They are formatted properly, with indentation of logical parts.
19:22 <ASau> Not just formal ones.
19:23 <grandrew> hm
19:23 <ASau> Do you think, that's because they're written so, that reader couldn't understand them?
19:24 <grandrew> human languages suck :-P
19:25 <ASau> English maybe.
19:25 <ASau> I'm not sure for it.
19:25 <grandrew> oh great!
19:26 <ASau> Other languages may rock.
19:26 <ASau> :p
19:27 <grandrew> ok. lets assume Russian rocks and finish the discussion :-p
19:27 <ASau> Yeah.
19:28 <ASau> ;)
19:32 -!- Prax01D(n=Prax01D@tor58-5-76-181.dynamic.rogerstelecom.net) has joined #maxima
20:32 -!- grandrew(n=grandrew@ppp91-76-27-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) has joined #maxima
20:56 -!- szymon(n=szymon@bzm109.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #maxima